Welcome new subscribers! There are more and more of you every week. And hello to all the folks who have been with us for a while. I so appreciate your support. Last week, The Green Dispatch looked at the possible health effects of Roundup, the ailments that the herbicide’s use might cause to humans. This week, I want to concentrate on the effects the herbicide may be having on the environment.
I have spoken to one of the executives at Rodale Institute. It really wasn’t much of a study more of an analyzation. They simply identify constituents with a mass spectrometer.
I have numerous credible and professional studies along with their findings that I shall locate and pass on to you. Thank you so much for addressing the topic. The entire GMO conspiracy is truly a morally bankrupt abhorrent toxic snake oil forced upon people who like to eat.
I’d like to make a few points here if you’ll allow me. First, you used an example of a colleague drinking glyphosate. While this anecdote is very attention grabbing, I think we all know that drinking herbicide is not part of any worker safety protocol that anyone with a half-normal brain would follow. It’s kinda like flying a kite in a lightning storm. Memorable anecdote. Not exactly anyone’s standard operating procedure.
Next, and this is really the most salient point, is that your articles largely conflate using glyphosate in crop agriculture settings around crop commodities intended for human consumption or managed landscaping with wildland weed control occurring as the name implies, in wildland areas where things like regenerative agriculture have limitations (you don’t want goats grazing around endangered plants, they will eat them without reservation).
If you take the tool of herbicide out of wildland weed control, I posit that you will unintentionally devastate native plant biodiversity and cause buildup of weed species like arundo which dramatically affect things like fire safety.
There are consequences to the most well-intentioned actions. We should be able to make decisions based on a full understanding of likely outcomes potential consequences.
Jonathan, my apologies for not getting back to you sooner. yes, that's true, most folks, not even the top management of Bayer, wake up and drink a cocktail of Roundup. The colleague drinking Roundup is pretty extreme, but I've also seen other examples of folks being very cavalier when they use Roundup.
As far as conflating agricultural use and wildland use, the studies I used for these articles studied people living in agricultural areas. Other studies on glyphosate in the environment noted the increase occurrence of glyphosate in agricultural regions. They were pretty clear about that. If I wasn't it's not because of them. The fault lies with me.
You and I agree. There are sometime weeds that are almost impossible to get rid of without Roundup. I don't think it should be banned. I just have read some of the science on the herbicide and wanted to share that knowledge here on The Green Dispatch.
Paul, I know you are a thoughtful guy. I am just asking for balance. I have been listening to the conversations that grantmakers like the Wildlife Conservation Board have been having with their constituencies and the hysteria about glyphosate is blocking them from considering or issuing grants for vital habitat restoration and fire safety projects involving herbicides (exclusively in wildland settings) and it has me concerned that the future of restoration and conservation organizations is staring into the abyss. I would like rhetoric to be more balanced and considerate of the trade-offs and consequences that are faced. Not appealing to fear and hysteria. I don’t mean any of this personally. I just expected a little more evenhanded treatment of the work that we do...
Jonathan, as someone who has used Roundup--and also someone who has gotten screamed at for doing so--I understand where you are coming from. Have you thought about writing about using Roundup in restoration on your Substack? I encourage you to do so. If you do, I'll be sure to put it up on Notes.
The person using a little prayer bottle or even a pump of 2 gallon sprayer applying it to unwanted plants in the cracks of the driveway or landscape is certainly not statistically relevant to the paradigm of toxicity. I mean personally they’re exposing themselves to something that definitely is but not in the bigger picture. Hundreds of millions of tons are replied to soy beans corn and wheat which is an off label use concerning the latter.
You're correct that small-scale use is probably insignificant when it comes to health and environmental hazards. On the other hand, in some applications, tons and tons of glyphosate are used and probably overused.
Jen, thanks for your thoughtful and well-informed note. And you are right. There is growing evidence that regenerative farming, which goes beyond the "just don't use pesticides" rule of organic farming, is turning out to be a very productive tack to take with farming.
Dr. Bronner's, Patagonia, and a few other companies have gone beyond Certified Organic to Regenerative Organic Certification, which includes practices for composting, no till or low till, and other more fully sustainable farming practices . The certification even includes fair labor practices. https://info.drbronner.com/all-one-blog/2018/01/moving-towards-regenerative-organic-certification/
I disagree, at least in part, with you when it comes to hydroponics and other indoor farming. While some nutritional value is lost, hydroponics and aquaponics can still supplement our diets, particularly for urban food production. I also think that innovations like vertical farming in cities, while not ideal, can produce a lot of food that is still nonetheless tasty and nutritious.
Thanks again. I always appreciate the insights you share.
Your analysis and sentiments are correct. I would like to point out a couple errors and a bottom line evolution of our current model.
Round Up or glyphosate of any kind is not used on turf. However, turf is the number one non-source point groundwater pollution are in the United States for passing corn sometime during the George W error. Yeah turf!
I think it’s a safe generalization that organic and regenerative producers do more soil tillage than conventional. If done thoughtfully, it can be reduced to far below a sustainable and inconsequential factor. The use of glyphosate as a binding dynamic on soil particles and precipitate the need for a sub soiling non-tillage technique which is rarely used on conventional farms. It is simply a compaction relieving knife set anywhere between three and 4 feet or less depending on individual soil and geographic constraints.
The entire toxic from input to product industrial agrabusiness model, note I didn’t use the word agriculture, relies entirely on fossil fuels. We are subsidizing wealthy landowners, and multi billion dollar per quarter profit planet raping corporations to produce toxic junk. Obviously, a terrible paradigm. Thank you so much for seeing what you’re looking at and advocation of it changing.
The most prescient point of fossil fuel reliant growth message is the depletion and killing of soil. It is a living thing. The current model has turned it into a simple matrix. The health of every human is directly correlated to the health of the soil his food stuff was produced in.
Why are there claims that I must vehemently received. How old do you think that organic farms are “poisoning the soil biome” as you put it?
I’m sure there are the incredibly rare occasions where that might be the case, but for the most part, organic practices are truly regenerative building soil not sterilizing it.
Not being familiar with your state assuming it’s a Michigan, I cannot say for certain but I have my doubts as to your claims concerning any of the comments associated with that.
OK I don’t even understand what you’re saying. Round up is not used on lungs other than tiny irrelevant amounts spot sprayed on gigantic weeds.
In the cracks of the sidewalk in the driveway. As I said in the article confirm, if you spray it on the lawn it dies. There is no round up formula that does not kill turf. And weed in it. GLYPHOSATE Kills herbaceous plants ubiquitously other than the 10 or 12 that have became resistant due to its ridiculous overusage.
The super toxic herbicide used on turf is some formulation of 24-D. A selective herbicide only killing Broadleaf and not Grass. Dicot not monocot to be specific. Super toxic product that remains in the environment until it percolates down through the soil profile to the ground water and is still being found decades later and water tests.
Obviously, the other toxic constituent applied to tour is the overuse of nitrogen and the nitrogen composition. It’s all chemical toxic bullshit. It’s killing the soil to enhance the plant temporarily.
And, the amount of round up used on or in turf is less than .01% of the entire dynamic. Most likely a 10th of that if not a 100th of that. It’s just not part of the equation. It’s not how the chemical or the biology of plants associated with it are associated. They are simply not associated. Other than if you’re trying to kill your lawn and start over
I cannot take your claims about conventional or organic farming with any credibility or from the standpoint of an honest broker. Either you don’t understand the issue or you are intentionally disingenuous.
You’re mostly right but that’s again, not a statistically significant percentage of the toxin introduced into the environment. However I will admit it is punching above its weight. Those applications are in places where there are a much higher density of population.
Allow me to reiterate. The main source of incredibly toxic ingredients from turf is whatever 24-D application they are using. Spray spring and summer granules in the fall. Ultra toxic, super long residual breakdown time, groundwater pollution and highly carcinogens. We’re talking about agent orange here. In essence. There are endless formulas of the chemical now. That way they can sell it by a different name for a higher price.
I do appreciate you offering clarification and you achieve your goal. More power to you.
Appreciate the information. Very useful in our knowledge of what's effects are happening in the world of agriculture and human consumption. Well done.
Pavel, thank you for your note. I appreciate your support.
I have spoken to one of the executives at Rodale Institute. It really wasn’t much of a study more of an analyzation. They simply identify constituents with a mass spectrometer.
One of the studies I will provide you given time found that 39 of America’s 44 non-drive-through restaurant chains has glyphosate right on the plate.
The worst offender being far more contaminated than the dirty dozen fruits and vegetables is conventional wheat.
Please send that along if you can find it. I'm unsurprised at the findings, but I'm curious about the study.
I have numerous credible and professional studies along with their findings that I shall locate and pass on to you. Thank you so much for addressing the topic. The entire GMO conspiracy is truly a morally bankrupt abhorrent toxic snake oil forced upon people who like to eat.
I’d like to make a few points here if you’ll allow me. First, you used an example of a colleague drinking glyphosate. While this anecdote is very attention grabbing, I think we all know that drinking herbicide is not part of any worker safety protocol that anyone with a half-normal brain would follow. It’s kinda like flying a kite in a lightning storm. Memorable anecdote. Not exactly anyone’s standard operating procedure.
Next, and this is really the most salient point, is that your articles largely conflate using glyphosate in crop agriculture settings around crop commodities intended for human consumption or managed landscaping with wildland weed control occurring as the name implies, in wildland areas where things like regenerative agriculture have limitations (you don’t want goats grazing around endangered plants, they will eat them without reservation).
If you take the tool of herbicide out of wildland weed control, I posit that you will unintentionally devastate native plant biodiversity and cause buildup of weed species like arundo which dramatically affect things like fire safety.
There are consequences to the most well-intentioned actions. We should be able to make decisions based on a full understanding of likely outcomes potential consequences.
Jonathan, my apologies for not getting back to you sooner. yes, that's true, most folks, not even the top management of Bayer, wake up and drink a cocktail of Roundup. The colleague drinking Roundup is pretty extreme, but I've also seen other examples of folks being very cavalier when they use Roundup.
As far as conflating agricultural use and wildland use, the studies I used for these articles studied people living in agricultural areas. Other studies on glyphosate in the environment noted the increase occurrence of glyphosate in agricultural regions. They were pretty clear about that. If I wasn't it's not because of them. The fault lies with me.
You and I agree. There are sometime weeds that are almost impossible to get rid of without Roundup. I don't think it should be banned. I just have read some of the science on the herbicide and wanted to share that knowledge here on The Green Dispatch.
Paul, I know you are a thoughtful guy. I am just asking for balance. I have been listening to the conversations that grantmakers like the Wildlife Conservation Board have been having with their constituencies and the hysteria about glyphosate is blocking them from considering or issuing grants for vital habitat restoration and fire safety projects involving herbicides (exclusively in wildland settings) and it has me concerned that the future of restoration and conservation organizations is staring into the abyss. I would like rhetoric to be more balanced and considerate of the trade-offs and consequences that are faced. Not appealing to fear and hysteria. I don’t mean any of this personally. I just expected a little more evenhanded treatment of the work that we do...
Jonathan, as someone who has used Roundup--and also someone who has gotten screamed at for doing so--I understand where you are coming from. Have you thought about writing about using Roundup in restoration on your Substack? I encourage you to do so. If you do, I'll be sure to put it up on Notes.
The person using a little prayer bottle or even a pump of 2 gallon sprayer applying it to unwanted plants in the cracks of the driveway or landscape is certainly not statistically relevant to the paradigm of toxicity. I mean personally they’re exposing themselves to something that definitely is but not in the bigger picture. Hundreds of millions of tons are replied to soy beans corn and wheat which is an off label use concerning the latter.
You're correct that small-scale use is probably insignificant when it comes to health and environmental hazards. On the other hand, in some applications, tons and tons of glyphosate are used and probably overused.
Indeed.
Jen, thanks for your thoughtful and well-informed note. And you are right. There is growing evidence that regenerative farming, which goes beyond the "just don't use pesticides" rule of organic farming, is turning out to be a very productive tack to take with farming.
Dr. Bronner's, Patagonia, and a few other companies have gone beyond Certified Organic to Regenerative Organic Certification, which includes practices for composting, no till or low till, and other more fully sustainable farming practices . The certification even includes fair labor practices. https://info.drbronner.com/all-one-blog/2018/01/moving-towards-regenerative-organic-certification/
I disagree, at least in part, with you when it comes to hydroponics and other indoor farming. While some nutritional value is lost, hydroponics and aquaponics can still supplement our diets, particularly for urban food production. I also think that innovations like vertical farming in cities, while not ideal, can produce a lot of food that is still nonetheless tasty and nutritious.
Thanks again. I always appreciate the insights you share.
Your analysis and sentiments are correct. I would like to point out a couple errors and a bottom line evolution of our current model.
Round Up or glyphosate of any kind is not used on turf. However, turf is the number one non-source point groundwater pollution are in the United States for passing corn sometime during the George W error. Yeah turf!
I think it’s a safe generalization that organic and regenerative producers do more soil tillage than conventional. If done thoughtfully, it can be reduced to far below a sustainable and inconsequential factor. The use of glyphosate as a binding dynamic on soil particles and precipitate the need for a sub soiling non-tillage technique which is rarely used on conventional farms. It is simply a compaction relieving knife set anywhere between three and 4 feet or less depending on individual soil and geographic constraints.
The entire toxic from input to product industrial agrabusiness model, note I didn’t use the word agriculture, relies entirely on fossil fuels. We are subsidizing wealthy landowners, and multi billion dollar per quarter profit planet raping corporations to produce toxic junk. Obviously, a terrible paradigm. Thank you so much for seeing what you’re looking at and advocation of it changing.
The most prescient point of fossil fuel reliant growth message is the depletion and killing of soil. It is a living thing. The current model has turned it into a simple matrix. The health of every human is directly correlated to the health of the soil his food stuff was produced in.
Stop treating our soil like dirt !
https://greendispatch.substack.com/p/doing-good-wild-willow-farms-teaches
You may like this piece I wrote about regenerative farming. Also, Dr. Bronner's has done a lot of work on regenerative agriculture.
https://www.drbronner.com/blogs/our-earth/regenerative-organic-agriculture
Thank you very much. I’m always looking for credible sources
Why are there claims that I must vehemently received. How old do you think that organic farms are “poisoning the soil biome” as you put it?
I’m sure there are the incredibly rare occasions where that might be the case, but for the most part, organic practices are truly regenerative building soil not sterilizing it.
Not being familiar with your state assuming it’s a Michigan, I cannot say for certain but I have my doubts as to your claims concerning any of the comments associated with that.
OK I don’t even understand what you’re saying. Round up is not used on lungs other than tiny irrelevant amounts spot sprayed on gigantic weeds.
In the cracks of the sidewalk in the driveway. As I said in the article confirm, if you spray it on the lawn it dies. There is no round up formula that does not kill turf. And weed in it. GLYPHOSATE Kills herbaceous plants ubiquitously other than the 10 or 12 that have became resistant due to its ridiculous overusage.
The super toxic herbicide used on turf is some formulation of 24-D. A selective herbicide only killing Broadleaf and not Grass. Dicot not monocot to be specific. Super toxic product that remains in the environment until it percolates down through the soil profile to the ground water and is still being found decades later and water tests.
Obviously, the other toxic constituent applied to tour is the overuse of nitrogen and the nitrogen composition. It’s all chemical toxic bullshit. It’s killing the soil to enhance the plant temporarily.
And, the amount of round up used on or in turf is less than .01% of the entire dynamic. Most likely a 10th of that if not a 100th of that. It’s just not part of the equation. It’s not how the chemical or the biology of plants associated with it are associated. They are simply not associated. Other than if you’re trying to kill your lawn and start over
I cannot take your claims about conventional or organic farming with any credibility or from the standpoint of an honest broker. Either you don’t understand the issue or you are intentionally disingenuous.
Pardon my lack of edit
You’re mostly right but that’s again, not a statistically significant percentage of the toxin introduced into the environment. However I will admit it is punching above its weight. Those applications are in places where there are a much higher density of population.
Allow me to reiterate. The main source of incredibly toxic ingredients from turf is whatever 24-D application they are using. Spray spring and summer granules in the fall. Ultra toxic, super long residual breakdown time, groundwater pollution and highly carcinogens. We’re talking about agent orange here. In essence. There are endless formulas of the chemical now. That way they can sell it by a different name for a higher price.
I do appreciate you offering clarification and you achieve your goal. More power to you.